“Surprised by What Emerges”:
& What It Means to Work in
Poetic Form
A Conversation with Midge Goldberg and Kyle Potvin
Interview by Kateri Campbell, Jack Caravallo, Mary-Kate DaCosta, Natalie Fenoff, Mae Fraser, Lindsey Kugler, Cassidy O’Connor, Arianna Scoppettuolo, & Marina White
On October 7, 2021, New Hampshire poets Midge Goldberg and Kyle Potvin met with Salem State University students enrolled
in Craft of Poetry, a course taught by state poet laureate Alexandria Peary. In
a socially distanced auditorium with students and professor masked-up and with
Midge and Kyle cast by Zoom onto the big screen, the poets gave an afternoon reading from
their newest books, both published in 2021, this Year of Our Pandemic—Midge from
To Be Opened After My Death,
published by Kelsay Books and Kyle from Loosen,
published by Hobblebush
Books. The reading was followed by a Q & A in which the students asked a range of questions about the authors’ experience
working in poetic form.
Midge Goldberg is the recipient of the 2016
Howard Nemerov Sonnet Award and the 2015 Richard Wilbur Poetry Award for Snowman's Code, (University of
Evansville Press), which was chosen as the 2016 New Hampshire Literary Awards
Reader's Choice Award for Outstanding Book of Poetry. She is also the author of
Flume Ride and the children’s book My Best Ever Grandpa. Midge holds an
M.F.A. from UNH and lives in Chester, New Hampshire.
Prior to Loosen, her debut full-length poetry collection, Kyle Potvin published a chapbook, Sound Travels on Water, which won the Jean Pedrick Chapbook Award. She is a two-time finalist for the Howard Nemerov Sonnet Award. Her poems have appeared in Bellevue Literary Review, Tar River Poetry, Rattle, Ecotone, The New York Times, and other places. She is a peer reviewer for Whale Road Review. Kyle lives on the seacoast of New Hampshire.
CO’C: What brought you to poetry as opposed to another genre of writing? What other genres do you write?
Midge Goldberg: I took a writing class which was focused half on short stories, half on poetry, but I really was more interested in writing short stories. We went through half the semester and then switched to poetry. The instructor put all these books on the table. I thought, “Oh, do we have to switch?” but then my hand fell on Rhina Espaillat’s book, which I picked up and fell in love with it and with formal poetry.
Kyle Potvin: When I was in my twenties, I took a continuing education class at NYU on short stories, and of course, I wanted to write fiction. So I would write my short stories, and they were all terrible because I can’t do plot, and I can’t do dialogue. In every one, there’d be this chunk in the middle that would be really lyrical, and my classmates would say, “oh my god, that’s so good!” So I finally realized, darn it, I’m a poet.
Midge Goldberg: So I mentioned the thing about the short stories. I do enjoy writing fiction as well. A while back I wrote a poem about a person at an inn, and recently I wrote a mystery, and the woman in the poem became a character in the mystery.
KC: Did your formal education in school help you further your poetry, or was it more a self-discovery, a “I learn as I go” kind of thing?
Midge Goldberg: I loved English in school, but I didn’t major in it. For me, it was mostly self-discovery. I guess I do have a MFA--I enjoyed that for learning about poetry, about the Romantics, about Latin poets, especially Ovid. So for me it was learning on my own and also learning with a workshop group. There’s a group of formal poets, The Powow River Poets, out of Newburyport, MA, and I learned a lot by working with them and attending their workshops.
MF: What appeals most to you about writing in form?
Kyle Potvin: I’m surprised by what emerges: it’s kind of a puzzle. If there’s something lacking in a particular free verse poem, I find that sometimes I can enhance it by bringing it into form.
Midge Goldberg: The meter is another layer that gives cues on how to read it. The form can also contribute to the meaning—the repetition of a villanelle or the logic and contradictions inherent in the sonnet form add to the meaning of the poem.
AS: Is there a specific meter that you like to write in? Is it a conscious or unconscious decision for you?
Kyle Potvin: I tend to write in iambic pentameter more because… I don’t know, it’s familiar. [Laughter] Midge is much savvier than I am. It’s a starting point a lot of times where maybe a line will come to me and it is iambic pentameter, and then I’ll just take off from there deciding if it should be a sonnet, blank verse or something else.
Midge Goldberg: For me, it’s sort of similar to picking the form, it has to match what I’m trying to say or how I’m trying to sound. Typically, I use iambic pentameter if I’m writing a sonnet or blank verse because I want it to sound more conversational. Tetrameter—four feet a line—or trimeter—three feet a line—typically if I’m trying to sound a little more humorous, but sometimes it’s humor with an underlining dark side. It’s nice because the meter makes you think it’s funny and “hah hah,” but then you get to the dark thing, and it’s the contrast between those two that make it more stark. And sometimes when I need to just keep trimming and trimming and trimming is usually when I write free verse.
My free verse tends to use really short, stark lines. I’ll write something in pentameter, and then it just feels way too padded for what I’m trying to say, and then it keeps going down. So, it depends on the mood I’m trying to create in the poem.
MD: In your poem “Circling,” you use the villanelle form. What came first for you? Was it the form or was there a specific message you wanted to write in that specific way?
Midge Goldberg: Usually, I have an idea and then I try to figure out what form it should take. Sometimes I’ll even try them in different forms, or I’ll start one and say, “No, that’s not right.” In this poem I didn’t know the end when I started. I just started with the one line, “The devil doesn’t need to use the door,” and then went from there, and the obsessive nature of the message led me to use the villanelle form.
MD: In your sonnet, “Sin,” you enjambed some lines, for example, “I used a stick to write DAM HELL; then cleared / away the words.” What does enjambment do for you as a poet? In using enjambment, do you want your poem to be read in a specific way, or is enjambment simply a way to include your words and fit the standards of a sonnet form?”
Kyle Potvin: In a sonnet, enjambment helps to bury the rhyme and make it less obvious. This allows the poem to have a more natural feel—conversational in this case. In general, choices about enjambment inform the tone of the poem. A flowing sentence across multiple lines has a different pacing than end-stopped lines.
Enjambment is a great tool to use if you want to put a focus on a particular phrase that then takes a surprising turn in the next line. For instance, in Lucille Clifton’s “won’t you celebrate with me?”, the first lines are:
won’t you celebrate with me
what i have shaped into
a kind of life? i had no model.
That second line: what I have shaped into — stands alone as a declaration of growth. Until you get to the next line and you see the phrase is actually taking a different meaning.
MD: In “Diagnosis,” you use the Abecedarian form, which is something I have never seen before. What was your writing process like for this poem? Did the form come to you first or the words/message?
Kyle Potvin: For this poem, I started with the idea of diagnosis (several friends had recently died of different cancers). Trying to find some distance, I decided to try an abecedarian.
I can’t remember exactly but I think I lined a page with each letter of the alphabet and then came up with a line for each. I continued to hone the piece from that initial draft. It’s a good form for a medical poem because otherwise it’s a challenge to figure out a word for “x”!
MW: When you think
of your favorite poets, do they tend to be free-verse poets, or poets that
write in form? Is there a difference between what you enjoy writing and what
you enjoy reading?
Midge Goldberg: I
would say that my favorite poets are poets who write in form: Richard Wilbur or
Edna St. Vincent Millay. I do like Jane Kenyon, who writes in free verse but
she’s got a lot of repetition so I can feel the meter even if the poems aren’t,
you know, completely in form. So I would say that I like free verse poets, but
my favorites are poets who write in form.
Kyle
Potvin: I have to say that my favorite poets are free verse poets. I
admire very much a lot of the formal poets and definitely there are poems that
I’m floored by. Formal
poets like: Rhina Espaillat, Deborah Warren, A.E. Stallings, Midge, of course. But the poems that really resonate for me are by Linda Pastan, Jane Kenyon, Wislawa Szymborska, and others.
There’s something about them that just connects with me. But I read everything, very experimental work, I read form, I read all kinds of free verse. There’s something out there for everybody. Reading can help your writing, no matter what, because it’s giving you ideas. You’re looking at everything. You’ve got line breaks, you’re looking at syntax, you’re looking at these little, interesting uses of language, and all of it can really help no matter what style you’re writing in. You may be writing in both form and free verse. Some things are perfect for form. Some, maybe, aren't.
MD: What advice do you have for free verse writers who are interested in writing meter?
Kyle Potvin: When I first started writing in form, I would have a model poem in front of me. It might be Robert Frost or a more contemporary poet, but I knew it was a strong example of rhyme and meter. I would build the outline, almost a diagram, showing which lines rhyme, etc. – and follow it. Even now, if I don’t know the form off the top of my head like a triolet, I’ll build that framework and then write the poem. Keep reading too.
Midge Goldberg: I would recommend starting by giving yourself a little assignment, a ballad stanza, or a sonnet. It doesn’t have to be perfect the first time, but just try it and read it aloud, that’s really important. Try to make it sound as natural as you can and then keep practicing.
LK: As a poet, do you ever feel expected to touch on specific topics
(such as social issues)? If so, how do you handle that pressure?
Kyle Potvin: I'm always just writing whatever comes to me. In any poem,
even if not overt, there is often an undercurrent of what’s happening in the
world because you’re writing about the time that you’re in. People are drawn to
exploring different topics, and it’s important to go ahead and write about what
is calling to you, in your own way.
Midge Goldberg: Poets are different and some really embrace writing about topics like that. I find that for me, I’m much better when there’s a lot of distance and a metaphor. I feel like it makes a poem stronger, so I don't feel pressured to write like that. But there are poets who do it really well. What I think you should really do is not ever feel pressure from anyone about what you should write about. You should write about what feels important to you.
JC: Are there specific locations, could be in New Hampshire, New England, or anywhere in the world that you like to visit to draw inspiration?
Kyle Potvin: I actually find that I write the most when I'm on a long trip by myself. So if I'm in the car and I’m driving for, say, four hours, I don’t turn the radio on. Something about it just opens up my brain. I have a stack of sticky notes and a pen, and I write with pad on my steering wheel as I’m driving. It’s the same on a long cross-country airplane ride. I don’t get on the wi-fi, well maybe a little bit! But I just let my brain go and that silence, that time, unleashes thoughts.
Midge Goldberg: For me, it’s being somewhere quiet, especially in nature. Where
I live is pretty quiet, with woods and a pond. Sometimes it’s when I’m walking;
the rhythm of the walking will help. It’s being as close to nature as I can.
NF:
What is one thing you wish you could tell your past self about where you are
today in regard to your writing? What advice or encouragement would you give,
if any?
Midge Goldberg:
That’s a really great question. I think all I could say is if you’re really
serious about it, make it a practice for yourself. Sit down in the chair; if
it's every day or a certain number of days a week, sit down in the chair and
write. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad, just keep writing and you will
keep getting better. You will write stuff you don't like and then you will
write something you love, and you will just keep getting better. And keep
submitting, just submit and submit and submit. It doesn't matter how many
rejections you get, keep writing. And if you love it, the time will mean
something to you when you’re sitting there in the chair.
Kyle Potvin: I
would add too that at the same time, life happens. You may come to times in
your life where writing is not the priority, like if you’re in your career and add
family responsibilities on top of that. There might be times where writing is
just not happening. Don’t freak out about it; that spark is going to return to
you. Write as you can – even if it’s journaling or snippets of observations. I
published my first book in my 50s, so that should give you some incentive.
You've got plenty of time to go.
